AutoriusTema: Kas yra tas kovos menas?  (Skaityti 70800 kartai)

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #60 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 08:04:43 am »
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O ka pons zinote, kur Lietuvoje Kodokana "desto" praktishkai..? :chmm: :oho:
:luztu: visur...
Nėra  Lietuvoje kito dziudo, tik Kodokan Dziudo :teisejas:

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #61 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 08:16:52 am »
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Diržus laikausi po vieną į tris metus (šiuo metu oranžinis), kad sau pasidemonstruočiau link tobulumo artėjančius savo kūno valdymo sugebėjimus.
Kata iki gan neseniai dariau todėl, kad liepdavo daryti, gan neseniai darau todėl, kad patinka tai, kas jose užfiksuota. Moku normaliai tik heianus ir bassai dai. Kol neišstudijuosiu to, kas jose fiksuojama, kitas mokytis nematau jokio reikalo, juolab kad iš esmės jose beveik viskas ir pasakyta. Bent mano gyvenimui turėtų pakakti.
Menas man nerūpi. Visada labiau patiko paprastai srėbt arbatą, paprastai sumerkt gėles į vazą ir nekankint medžių verčiant juos bonsai. Svarbiausia, ką pasiėmiau iš karate ,yra savikontrolė. Neabejoju, kad tą pat, jei man patiktų boksas, pasiimčiau ir iš ten. Tai, ką pasiimi, priklauso nuo pasiimančiojo požiūrio, o ne nuo to, kaip vadinasi viena ar kita veikla.
Na, tai čia tavo pasirinkimas, tavo kelias (Do).

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Juk pats rašai, kad ta pati arbata gali būti ir menas, ir ne. Tai lygiai taip pat ta pati karate gali būti ir menas, ir ne, kad ir kokie ten lankstymaisi mokytojams, kichon, kata ir kumite būtų, tas pats boksas gali būti ir menas ir ne, tas pats siamo kitoj temoj minėtas automatinis liežuvių išpjaustymas gali tapti menu, jei atliekantysis pridės ten kažko savito ir ritualinio.
:handshake:

Tai kada tas menas prasideda? Juk sutikit, kad neužtenka vien mano apsisprendimo būti menininku, kad kiti tai vadintų menu. :chmm: Gal grįžtam prie to, kad "menas" - netikęs vertinys? Todėl neverta juo spekuliuoti.

Pažiūrėkit, kiek menininkų Lietuvos talentų šou.
« Paskutinis taisymas: 2009 Spa 16, 08:42:39 am nuo dziudoka »

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #62 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 08:23:21 am »
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dainiux:Kad sportas nesigintsiju, kovinis sportas tik nereiktu pamirst, kad is gatves kovu kiles.
O gatvės kovos iš laukų. :D Kaip beje ir visos sistemos... Šiaip žmogai pirmiausia luposi kumščiais ir dantimis, po tik pagalius ir akmenis prigriebė.

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #63 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 08:40:42 am »
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moralinės nuostatos neleidžia pulti pačiai, bet savigyna jų nepažeistų. Vadinasi, galiu mokytis žiaurių kovos metodų ir turėdama išaukštintas moralines nuostatas, negi ne?
Moralė, tai vyraujančios klasės primestos elgesio normos :teisejas:
"Hagakurėje" netgi reikalavo už bile ką (pagal dabartinį supratimą) kirsti per galvą, priešingu atveju - gėda. :-(

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #64 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 08:48:35 am »
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:luztu: visur...
Nėra  Lietuvoje kito dziudo, tik Kodokan Dziudo :teisejas:
Ar isties taip yra  :chmm: Ir kiek "liko" is to Kodakan dziudo Lietuvoje ?

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #64 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 08:48:35 am »

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #65 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 08:56:49 am »
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Ar isties taip yra  :chmm: Ir kiek "liko" is to Kodakan dziudo Lietuvoje ?
Acakeu Karate temoje :D

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #66 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 09:11:47 am »
Kitaip tariant "iskastruota" Kodakan dziudo vis dar galime vadinti budo ar ne?

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #67 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 12:43:12 pm »
O beje, budo lygu kovos menas? Kažkaip man regis, tos dvi sąvokos painiojamos... Kelias ir menas lyg ir ne tas pats, aš va savo kelią aprašiau, kaip teisingai pastebėjo dziudoka, ir nieku gyvu ne meną...
Stiprus žmogus ne tas, kuris visus nugali. Stiprus tas, su kuriuo niekas nenori kovoti.

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #68 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 13:16:53 pm »
Taigi po ilgu diskusiju velgi sugrystam prie to paties klausimo kuri pakartojo dziudoka:
Citata
Tai kada tas menas prasideda? Juk sutikit, kad neužtenka vien mano apsisprendimo būti menininku, kad kiti tai vadintų menu. :chmm: Gal grįžtam prie to, kad "menas" - netikęs vertinys? Todėl neverta juo spekuliuoti.
Tarkim menas netikes vertinys tada ka mes norim pabresti skirstydami sistemas i menines ir sportines ?
Kokie tie kriterijai kuriais remdamiesi mes grupuojam sistemas ?
Taisykliu nebuvimas, nera kriterijus, nes kas draudziama sportinese varzybose nera draudziama gatveje, tas pats sportininkas varzybose kovodamas pagal taisykles dar nereiskia, kad gatvej kovos pagal tas patses taisykles.
Kitas dalykas tas, kad sportines varzybos bent jau padeda pasitikrinti "ne tokias pavojingas technikas" bei ivaldyti jas ne tik teoriniam bet ir praktinem lygmeni.
Nors velgi, del tu "ne tokiu pavojingu techniku", kazi ir sulauzitas zandikaulis ar sonkauliai maziau pavojinga nei koks sulauzytas raktikaulis, ar abejotinas smugis i gerkle kuris realiai 90 proc praktikuojantsiu niekad nebuvo pritaikytas jokiose nei sportinese nei gatves kovose...


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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #69 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 13:32:06 pm »
Labai išsamus straipsnis apie Jutsu ir Do santykį, gal padės atsakyti į klausimus ir baigt apie tą patį ginčytis pastoviai.
Citata
In this article I'd like to briefly discuss the concepts of 'Jutsu' and 'Do'. The meaning of the word 'Jutsu' is 'Science' or 'Method'. In martial arts, the term 'Jutsu' is used in reference to the techniques and strategies used in real combat. The word 'Do' means 'The Way'. In martial arts terms, the suffix 'Do' is used to infer that the focus of training is predominately upon the development of the practitioner's character. Hence, 'Karate-Jutsu' could be thought of as the application of karate in real situations, and 'Karate-Do' would be the practice of karate in order to develop the character of its participants.

In recent times, the term 'Karate-Do' has become associated with ineffective karate that makes little or no attempt to utilise the highly effective methods recorded within the karate katas. In fact, practitioners of Karate-Do are now often belittled as deluded individuals practising an ineffective children's art. On the other side of the argument, those who tag themselves as practitioners of Karate-Jutsu are often viewed as dangerous psychotics who revel in violence. I find this trend most worrying, as I believe that both views are extremely limited and damaging to karate as a whole. It is my view that true karate should be both 'Jutsu' and 'Do'. I also believe that the two approaches are in no way mutually exclusive and do in fact depend upon each other!

Practising just the combative aspects of karate (jutsu) would mean that we are only concerned with the development of effective fighters and that we care little about the characters of those that we train. Would it be OK to teach fighting skills to an individual with a violent nature? Would it be OK to foster those violent attitudes if it meant the individual could be a more effective fighter? What if that individual used their skills on the weak, the elderly, or their spouse? Would that be OK, because they practice 'jutsu' and are hence only concerned with the winning of fights, whomever they are against? If the only concern of 'Jutsu' is to win fights, then surely using karate for criminal acts is OK, so long as you win? To my mind - and the mind of any decent human being - it is obviously not OK for karate to be used in this way. From the earliest records we have, the enhancement of the moral character of a student has always been a key part of karate. Take a look at the Bubishi; there is certainly a lot of instruction on how to incapacitate an opponent in combat. However, there is also a great deal of instruction on etiquette and the correct behaviour that should be exhibited by a martial artist.

But what about a pure 'Do' approach? Obviously you are no longer concerned with how effective a fighter you are (which is a dubious position for any martial artist to take!). Your only concern is the bettering of yourself as an individual. How is this to be achieved exactly? By the repeated practice of kata? By entering tournaments? By passing your gradings? I'm sure we all know plenty of people who have done all of the above, but still aren't kind and benevolent human beings. To truly better yourself, I believe that you need to be fully aware of all your weaknesses, and then work to eradicate them. I remain unconvinced that turning up to the club twice a week, learning a few physical moves, working up a sweat and then going home, will in anyway bring these weaknesses to the surface. So what will?

In the book, 'Karate: Beginner to Black Belt', H.D. Plee (who was the pioneer of karate in Europe) wrote, "One must not loose sight of the fact that Karate is "all-in" fighting. Everything is allowed … This is why Karate is based on blows delivered with the hand, the foot, the head or the knee. Equally permissible are stragulations, throwing techniques and locks. This is one of the fascinating things about Karate; this sensation of mastery over effective techniques brings an inner peace and calm…" The idea that realistic training can develop an individual is also echoed in many of the writings of other karate greats. In 'Karate-Do Nyumon' Gichin Funakoshi wrote, "One whose spirit and mental strength have been strengthened by sparring with a never-say-die attitude should find no challenge too great to handle. One who has undergone long years of physical pain and mental agony to learn one punch, one kick, should be able to face any task, no matter how difficult, and carry it through to the end. A person like this can truly be said to have learned karate." By engaging in arduous, austere and realistic training, our mental and physical weaknesses are forced to the surface, such that they can be confronted. If you can overcome the fear generated by sparring, then you should be able to override the exact same emotion when it prevents you from pursuing your dreams. If you have the discipline to endure the demands of training, then you should also be able to endure difficult times in your life outside the dojo. If you are able to keep control of your temper during sparring, then you should also be able to control any potential outbursts that could harm your relationships with others. If you can face the most feared opponent in the dojo, then you should also be able to stand up for both yourself and others in the event of an injustice. However, if the training is not stressful enough, it is unlikely to stimulate any developments in character, simply because your character is unlikely to be tested to a sufficient degree. Realistic training (Jutsu) will force all your weaknesses to the surface. A good Sensei will then help you to overcome those weaknesses, such that you not only become a better fighter, but also a better human being (Do). 'Jutsu' is the foundation upon which 'Do' is built! To simply concern yourself with fighting, and nothing else, will prevent you from progressing to the higher levels of training. To ignore 'jutsu' and attempt to progress to 'Do' is a futile endeavour as you have no foundation upon which to build. How can you progress beyond the combative aspects of training when you have never faced them? It is my belief that true karate is learning the 'Jutsu' to such a level that it progresses to become 'Do'.

You could argue why continue onto 'Do,' if all you want are effective fighting skills? Obviously that is a decision for you to make. However, when I look at what I have learnt throughout my years in karate, is it the knowledge of kicks, punches, locks, chokes etc. that is the most valuable to me? Or is it the friends I have made? The confidence that I have acquired? Or the greater degree of control I have over potentially destructive emotions like envy, anger and fear? I'd have to say that the effects that karate has had on my character are of greater value to me than its fighting techniques.

You'd be wise to avoid the 'Jutsu' / 'Do' debate and the attempts at classification it encourages. True karate should be both 'Jutsu' and 'Do'. We should certainly practice and apply the art practically, and in its entirety, such that we possess the skills needed to defend ourselves in real situations (Jutsu). We should also ensure that we endeavour to learn more about our strengths and weaknesses via the nature of such training. We can then use that knowledge to develop ourselves as individuals, to better equip ourselves to help others, and to help us pursue our dreams and lead the lives we want to live (Do).


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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #69 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 13:32:06 pm »

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #70 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 13:45:09 pm »
Na o jei tą visą perskaitėte ir dar kažką norite parašyti, tai prieš tai paskaitykite dar ir šitą :)
Citata
Do versus Jutsu: Which Side Are You On?
By Jeff Brooks

The difference between “Do” and “Jutsu” gets debated a lot in martial arts circles. However, because the perspective of the debaters is often limited to the frame of reference they have from their dojo experience, it is difficult for the debate to progress. Even the terms used in the debate stay murky. If you can't define -Do and -Jutsu it is hard to get any good traction in the discussion of which of those two you do, which of them your teachers or their teachers did, and the merits of one or the other.

If you examine the issue from outside the dojo, the whole thing clears up pretty well.

The main outline of the debate is this: In Japan, when the samurai era ended, the culture changed, technology advanced and martial arts became in one way or another - technically or culturally - obsolete. Many people wanted to continue practicing their martial arts, but had to find a different purpose for practicing. This process happened in swordsmanship and in empty hand martial arts, as it had earlier in many of the traditional arts of Japan. Martial artists adopted a familiar cultural model for the transition of their own practices.

For example, making gardens, doing flower arrangements, or making tea, all had, at one time, a simple practical orientation. After Japanese society became more sophisticated there were people who practiced these crafts masterfully. In their simple commonplace acts, refined to a high degree through practice, these virtuosi began to experience a deeper sense of purpose. They found that the simple movements of their body, the design of space, the forms they created and tools they employed, all seemed to fall naturally into a kind of harmonious perfection. Instead of ending up with just a cup of hot tea on a cold day (for example), these adepts experienced some deeper sense of reality, of humanity, of life.

They wanted to teach others how to achieve what they had achieved. The purpose of this next generation of students was then explicitly to achieve insight, a deep experience of reality, not just to landscape a yard, or to cut down an opponent. This generation begins to practice a "-Do." (The Japanese word Do is from the Chinese word Tao, often translated as Way. It is interpreted as a way, as in a path (meaning a path through life or a path to enlightenment) or the way, as in the way things exist.) The word Do became asuffix to many Japanese traditional arts: Ken-do (the way of the sword), Karate-do (empty hand way), Cha-Do (the way of tea), Kyu-Do (the way of archery), etc. There are many others.

The orientation of these subsequent generations of students, people who undertook practice not as primarily a practical matter (as their cultural ancestors did) but with the explicit intention of self-development or other spiritual interest, changed the nature of the practice itself. And that change was noted: sometimes as a refinement of tradition, and often, by revisionists, as a departure from the original method and intention of the earlier practitioners of the tradition. These reformers attempted to “correct” it.

To some degree this process has transformed the practice of dojo martial arts. This stands in contrast to the experience of practitioners of a "-Jutsu ." A -Jutsu is a technique or a craft. Its objectives are explicitly functional.

If you want to get the job done as a carpenter you learn how to practice the craft. You learn how to use the tools, how to work with the materials, how to select, sort, design, measure, cut, fasten, build. At the end of the day you have done your job, you've earned your pay, you've fed your family. If, after decades of the practice of your trade, you have become a master of the craft, excellent. If by some means, due to your character, your action, the teaching you have absorbed, you are one of the very rare few who manifest and realize some profound truth through your craft, tremendous. But that was not, at the outset or along the way, the objective of your studies or your work life. It is not something you consider to be other than your own maturing life.

-Do and -Jutsu aren’t totally separate, but they are not the same thing. And in the generations after these rare masters transcended the limits of their Jutsu and began teaching disciples a Do, people who are pursuing one often do not cross paths with people pursuing the other.

In martial arts this separation is a detriment of both, because each has a great deal to gain from the experiences of the other, The goal is not to mix or confuse the two objectives - but to deepen and help realize whichever one you are engaged in.

The Do aspect happens in dojos, generally speaking. Regardless of the name of the art (for example whether you practice aiki-do or aiki-jutsu) if the motivation for your training is improved health, improved focus, the improved synthesis of body and mind, improved self-defense ability, and you plan to stay with practice as part of your life for an indefinite period of time, you are practicing a Do. The opportunity for deep understanding of the subtleties of the art, and the deep integration of it into your body and mind, is great. The danger in this approach is that the practice becomes soft, easygoing and so fails to foster the depth of demand and the immediacy of jeopardy that made earlier practitioners of the art leap over the usual limits of untrained human beings and strive diligently to go to the ultimate of their capacity and beyond.

The -Jutsu aspect of martial arts training right now is going on in police academies, in basic training and other special training in the military. Generally the people doing -Jutsu training need a certain level of skill to qualify for their job. They are seeking to pass a test, like an annual qualification in defensive tactics, or P-24 baton. Or, at a higher level of aspiration, they are seeking a level of competence that will help assure them that they will be able to handle a violent confrontation competently and live to make it home at the end of the day and work another shift tomorrow.

The kind of training they do has a vitality to it that is missing from much dojo training. This kind of Jutsu martial training, however, usually does not go too deep. The human body cannot sustain the level of violence placed upon it in this training, day in and day out. The deep muscle memory, the transformation of body and mind, the deep conditioning afforded by a -Do through the performance of the same movement sequences day in and day out for decades, will not happen in a Jutsu. What Jutsu training can and does do is to shock the student or participant into red alert and into an immediate recognition of the swift and violent nature of assault in a way that more modulated, long-term training cannot.

In dojo culture there is often an unspoken assumption that if you know a technique, you can make it work and that therefore you are protected from the specific kind of attack the technique addresses. Police and military training are much less likely to make that mistake. Police defensive tactics training operates on the presumption that you do the best you can to prepare, you bring the tools you need to the situation, you do your best to be aware, backed up, and ready. And also that, ultimately, you cannot assume anything. It's up to you and every situation will present you with unique and unpredictable variables. No outcome can be presupposed.

At the same time, in dojo cultures there are many people who are much more sophisticated and polished in their technical skills than most Jutsu practitioners will ever be.

Do and Jutsu are different. But each can and should learn from the other. Police and military people can learn new techniques from dojo presentations of martial arts, and they can get the kind of long-term benefits of conditioning and consistent training unavailable from annual qualification training and occasional review. Dojo self-defense practitioners can get the vitality of practice that comes from the police or military practitioner's sense of the immediacy of imminent threat and the intensity of response that is required to prevail.

We are not all practicing the same thing for the same reason, but we can all share those dimensions of practice emphasized by the other.
[/quote/

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #71 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 14:35:44 pm »
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Pažiūrėkit, kiek menininkų Lietuvos talentų šou.
Mano galva, bet koks "menas"-kovos ir ne kovos, patampa menu, kai turi isliekamaja verte.
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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #72 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 15:41:46 pm »
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Mano galva, bet koks "menas"-kovos ir ne kovos, patampa menu, kai turi isliekamaja verte.
Įdomi mintis :chmm:, bet mano senelio šeimos smetoninė fotografija turi išliekamąją vertę tik palikuonims. Visas antikos palikimas turi išliekamąją vertę, bet tai nebūtinai menas.

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #73 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 15:42:54 pm »
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Labai išsamus straipsnis apie Jutsu ir Do santykį, gal padės atsakyti į klausimus ir baigt apie tą patį ginčytis pastoviai.
Stripuli, please :respect: :respect: :respect:

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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #74 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 15:43:27 pm »
Gal kas išverstų tą straipsnį į valstybinę kalbą? :aciu:
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Re: Kas yra tas kovos menas?
« Atsakyti #74 įjungtas: 2009 Spa 16, 15:43:27 pm »